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NWA, WCW, and RAW World Heavyweight Titles

Pre-1990 topics only.

Postby Hisaharu Tanabe » 2003/08/12 Tue 7:21 am

That's right. You gotta calm down before I decide to close this thread and ban this endless topic.
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Postby edgehead1984 » 2003/08/12 Tue 10:00 am

Of course Jericho would be recognized as a former WCW champion because he defeated The Rock at No Mercy then the Rock won back the title.

The big question is, was Triple H recognized as a former WCW champion???
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Postby oknazevad » 2003/08/12 Tue 1:45 pm

Well, go on over to the WWE website. Chris Jericho is listed as a former WCW Champion and a former WWE Champion. And if their is any question as to wether they recognized the Undisputed Title as both Titles look at their listing for The Undertaker. He was the ony man not to hold the WCW Title before the Undisputed Title nor has he held the World Heavyweight Title since. He as listed as a former WWE Champion. He is not listed as a former WCW/World Campion.


Neither is Kurt Angle, and he actually held the WCW title as a completely seperate championship before the two were unified. Sure, it was only for a weekend, but he did hold it. His U.S. Title isn't listed either.

Indeed, the more I think about it, the more I think using anything what WWE says as proof of our position is about as bad an idea as we could collectively have, considering just how loose and inconsistant they've been with terminology over the issue. So, I think Hisa's right, we really should just drop it and draw our own conclusions.
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Postby Dan Poutsma » 2003/08/12 Tue 7:11 pm

Here's my final say on the matter:

First of all, the "World" title is WWE's property, so the bottom line is they can say whatever they wanna say about it's history, but ONLY if it's within their legal limits to do so. So if they wanna say it's the same as the old WCW title, then they have every right to do so because they purchased that piece of intellectual property from Turner. However, they CANNOT rightfully say it's the same as the NWA World title because A) from a factual standpoint, the NWA World title never became the WCW title and B) legally, they don't own the rights to the NWA name. Besides, nobody in this discussion is claiming that the NWA title became the WCW title anyway, so I don't see where it has any relevance to the particular topic of the "Undisputed" title and whether or not it was simply one title (the WWF/E title) or two titles (the WWF/E title and the World title).

Secondly, the account that joeyi presented of Bischoff awarding Triple H the World title is just that, one account. As Talison said, it is not a word for word transcript of what was actually said.

Thirdly, Bischoff DID in fact "dispute" the Undisputed title, but that doesn't necessarily equate to him stripping the World title from Lesnar (if it was part of the Undisputed title) and awarding it to Triple H. If they never openly SAID that's what they were doing, then you can't rightfully assume that that's what DID happen.

Fourthly, the words "brought back" and a couple of other terms synonyomous with it WERE used. I don't have it on tape, so I obviously can't prove it, but I DO remember Okerlund using at least one of those terms when he was introing the history piece they did on Confidential

Fifthly, to say that there is no crossover whatsoever between that show and the "Kayfabe" shows is simply not true. On RAW, they played up the importance of the World title by saying it was held by Flair, Dusty Rhodes, Harley Race, Jack Brisco, etc., but they never mentioned anything about it being part of the Undisputed title. Furthermore, on Confidential they ALSO traced it's history back through both the WCW title, the NWA title, and beyond, but never mentioned the alleged role it played as composing part of the Undisputed title along with the WWF/E title. So to say that the "smart" show is totally and completely independent of the "kayfabe" show is not right.

And finally, I don't think anything I said was "BS" at all. Fact of the matter is it's just plain stupid for two different "world" titles that are recognized by the same company to remain completely separate entities even after they've been unified into an "Undisputed" title. That doesn't make any sense. If there were two different companies involved, then the "Undisputed" title WOULD be composed of two different titles. But I don't see the logic in ONE company continuing to recognize one guy as holding two different "world" titles of equal value even after they've supposedly "come together". To me, that's just nonsense.

But again, in the longrun, it doesn't really matter what any of us think. It all comes down to what WWE says. What they say with regard to the Undisputed title is what is ultimately "official". If they wanna say it was two separate titles, then they can. If they wanna say it was just one title, then they can. Unfortunately though, knowing their history, what they consider as "official" might obviously be subject to change. If they can't even keep the Kane storyline straight, then I would hate to think about all the different changes that might occur with regard to their "official" stance on the Undisputed title, depending on which way the wind blows. But in the meantime, I still don't think the verbage that they used before and after Triple H was awarded the World heavyweight title can be completelely ignored or discarded. Use of terms like "brought back" and also the fact that Bischoff never openly and explicitly said he was stripping Lesnar of the World championship still have to be taken into consideration when trying to figure out how things should be interpreted for the time being.
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Postby oknazevad » 2003/08/13 Wed 7:46 pm

Fair enough. You laid out your views well enough to almost convince me. I guess my reaction is based much on the desire to see a greater amount of continuity in the title, but as you said, WWE has given us no definitive, official ruling, and even if they did, it'd probably change. So, I'm going to reserve judgement as to a definitive view. I may say one thing one week and another the next. I can be quite mercurial like that.

Now, in a vaguely related topic, I wonder if this year's crop of WWE video games is going to include both sets of titles. Maybe Raw 2 will have the Raw ones, Smackdown:Here Comes the Pain, the Smackdown set, and WrestleMania XIX both sets. That would be cool. Because then you could become Undisputed Champion again, and this time it'd definately be both titles together.
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Postby edgehead1984 » 2003/08/13 Wed 9:16 pm

[QUOTE=oknazevad]

Now, in a vaguely related topic, I wonder if this year's crop of WWE video games is going to include both sets of titles. Maybe Raw 2 will have the Raw ones, Smackdown:Here Comes the Pain, the Smackdown set, and WrestleMania XIX both sets. That would be cool. Because then you could become Undisputed Champion again, and this time it'd definately be both titles together.[/QUOTE]

Could be interesting.

I agree with you though.
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Postby Haiku Warrior » 2003/11/10 Mon 8:19 pm

[QUOTE=joeyi]ric flair first World Heavyweight Champion HHH latest[/QUOTE]

I think most would consider The Rock as the 1st World Heavyweight Champion because the name itself was not changed until November 2001. If you are trying to say that Flair was the first World Heavyweight Champion because he brought Big Goldy with him to the WW(F) back in 1991 then that is wrong. They called him the "Real World Champion" and he never defended Big Goldy on WW(F) TV. I agree that the WCW Title lineage should follow into Trip's title as I consider Jericho a World Heavyweight Champion after he beat The Rock in December of 2001. *Personally I think the WWE could have saved everyone a great deal of hassle if they would have scrapped the "Undisputed" belt and brought back the old Federation title to give to Lesnar ---> WWF Title + WCW Title = new Undisputed Title.... no WCW Title.... no undisputed tag line.... no need for the new belt.... bring back old Fed belt....*

P.S - Anyone else think that the Hardcore title looks like a better belt compared to WWE's version of the U.S. Title.
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Postby edgehead1984 » 2003/11/10 Mon 11:00 pm

[QUOTE=Haiku Warrior]I think most would consider The Rock as the 1st World Heavyweight Champion because the name itself was not changed until November 2001. If you are trying to say that Flair was the first World Heavyweight Champion because he brought Big Goldy with him to the WW(F) back in 1991 then that is wrong. They called him the "Real World Champion" and he never defended Big Goldy on WW(F) TV. I agree that the WCW Title lineage should follow into Trip's title as I consider Jericho a World Heavyweight Champion after he beat The Rock in December of 2001. *Personally I think the WWE could have saved everyone a great deal of hassle if they would have scrapped the "Undisputed" belt and brought back the old Federation title to give to Lesnar ---> WWF Title + WCW Title = new Undisputed Title.... no WCW Title.... no undisputed tag line.... no need for the new belt.... bring back old Fed belt....*

P.S - Anyone else think that the Hardcore title looks like a better belt compared to WWE's version of the U.S. Title.[/QUOTE]

first off, interesting point, Haiku, never thought of it that way, and welcome back. secondly, I like the new US belt, I'm not American, but to me it oozes Americana, which is what the belt represents anyway, isn't it??
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Postby Talison » 2003/11/11 Tue 2:18 am

I love the new US Title Belt.
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Postby Black_Flag_Of_Ulster » 2003/11/11 Tue 5:20 pm

i think its heineously ugly. I dont mind that it screams 'AMERICA!!!' nothing else to be expected from the company that gave us La Resistance, Ludvig Borga or Colonel Mustafa. But its terribly ugly.
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Postby joeyi » 2003/11/19 Wed 3:28 am

ric flairs regein in 1991 with wcw was the first world heavyweight champion of the raw title not the rock...
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Postby Slickster » 2003/11/21 Fri 6:06 pm

[QUOTE=Dan Poutsma]
Secondly, the account that joeyi presented of Bischoff awarding Triple H the World title is just that, one account. As Talison said, it is not a word for word transcript of what was actually said. [/QUOTE]

But this is!

From CRZ's report (courtesy of slashwrestling.com):

Eric Bischoff kicks if off, as he so often seems to these days. Maybe *that's* why this show always seems worse than the other one...naaah. "You know...Brock Lesnar likes to refer to himself as the Undisputed Heavyweight Champion of the World, but ever since my competitor persuaded him to become exclusive SmackDown! property, I would say that that title is very, very disputed.

And you know what - you fans in this arena who I love SO much...and fans from around the world deserve BETTER than that, dammit! You people deserve your OWN world champion! Exclusive to RAW, the #1 brand in the history, mind you, of sports entertainment...now Stephanie McMahon, she can refer to The Undertaker as the #1 Contender if she chooses, and that's fine, that's her prerogative, and she can have her match with The Undertaker and Brock Lesnar at Unforgiven - that's fine, because the world knows who the REAL #1 Contender is, don't you.

That's right - he's the man that proved and convinced The Undertaker, right here on RAW, that it's much better to jump to SmackDown! and be a big fish in a little pond than it is to swim with the sharks on RAW. Ladies and gentlemen, may I introduce to you the REAL #1 Contender...TRIPLLLLLLLLLE H!" We are sadly denied the introduction of H's new "no foreplay" T shirt as H comes out in black polo shirt, slacks, nice shoes and belt. "You know, Eric, there's one thing you forgot to mention and that's the fact as to *why* Brock Lesnar left RAW to go to SmackDown! Let's face it - the reason Brock Lesnar LEFT...is me. Brock Lesnar knows that he doesn't belong in the same ring with me. Brock Lesnar knows that he can't hang with me in this ring. As a matter of fact, Brock Lesnar doesn't belong speaking my name. And the fact is, that the second I beat The Undertaker to become the #1 Contender, Brock Lesnar knew that his days as champion were numbered - so he took his belt, and he ran with his tail between his legs. You see, Eric, as it turns out, the Next Big Thing has no (balls)."

"You know what, Triple H, you and I definitely are on the same page, man I agree with you a hundred percent. And, that's what I've always said about you, you know what I mean - you say what's on your mind - I mean, that's what I said when I first got here, if I would have been able to sign you to Nitro way back when, hell, I would - I KNOW we would have won the Monday night wars. No doubt in my mind. I mean, you kick *** - man, you- you- you- you just take control of the situation, you've been kickin' *** here in WWE longer than...than almost anybody! Your accolades here in the WWE are, are unbelievable, but you know what? They're about to become even bigger."

Bischoff goes for his briefcase, and opens it to reveal...the Big Gold Belt. "Triple H - you may recognise this world championship, because you were the last man to officially wear it. It's been worn by some of the greatest champions in the history of this industry - and now, Triple H, it will be again - because ladies and gentlemen, your NEW WORLD CHAMPION...TRIPLLLLLLLLLLLLLE H!" H takes the belt and scales a corner - or two. Eep. "You know, Eric...a lotta guys have come out here and they'd say 'you know, ***, what an honour but I really don't deserve this...' But then again, I'm not a lotta guys, am I. 'cause the fact is, YOU know it, I know it, and every single one of these people know it...that NOBODY deserves to be the World Champion more than me. NOBODY should be THE World's Heavyweight Champion more than The Game. And you know, Eric...I gotta hand it to you - you are a much better judge of talent than my ex-wife it. So let me tell you this, as your NEW World - no, hold on--"

But instead, at this point RIC FLAIR makes an entrance. "Hey - like everyone else, if Lesnar refused to wrestle on RAW, the title he's wearing is most definitely disputed. And I think that the biggest wrestling company in the world, I'm talkin' about RAW, your company, deserves to have its own world champion. And you know what, Eric - I'm even inclined to go with - so far as to say as you may BE the man - after all, you wore this, you're the first, you wore it, you defended it, and everybody says now Triple H is the man - I got no problem with that.

The problem I have is that you wore it once, I wore it sixteen times. And nobody gift-wrapped it, brought it out here in a gold Haliburton, and gave it to me - I won it right here by bustin' my ***, right in the middle of this ring. Bled, woooo!, sweat, and paid the price of a wrestling lifetime - so what I'm sayin' to you, and to you is, I think you need... not to just put that over your shoulder tonight - you need to earn the right the right to wear it out that door." "Hey you know what? He may be on to something, for the first time in a long time you and I definitely agree.

But this isn't like SmackDown!, we don't need some bogus series to determine who gets a shot, we're gonna make that match right here tonight. First time in history, mind you, here on RAW - Triple H, the World Champion faces the Nature Boy Ric Flair. What are you thinkin'?" "I think...that it would be an honour and a privlege." "And I think I'm probably the luckiest man to be in this squared circle to know that I'm gonna wrestle you as the first contender - I'm equally honoured."

Flair offers the hand - H starts to stick out HIS hand but shakes Bischoff's hand instead. "Triple H - do that world championship proud - and Nature Boy Ric Flair, seventeen could be right around the corner for you, my friend. Good luck--" But as Flair shakes Bischoff's hand, Triple H decks Flair with a right, dropping him in the middle of the ring.
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The 'real' lineage of the WWE Raw title

Postby TJ Vermeer » 2003/11/22 Sat 10:34 am

The 'real' lineage of the RAW World heavyweight title:

<a href='http://www.wrestlingprofessor.com/BigGoldBelt5.html' target='_blank'>http://www.wrestlingprofessor.com/BigGoldBelt5.html</a>
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NWA/WCW/WWF/WWF Alliance/WWE RAW World Title

Postby mattitude » 2003/12/24 Wed 1:08 am

<span style='font-family:Arial'>Talison,</span>

<span style='font-family:Arial'>You make a lot of good arguments for this belt but this is the way I see it.</span>

<span style='font-family:Arial'>From 1948 - 1991 that belt Represented the NWA.. when WCW was slowly starting to change all the Television over to the WCW name it was because the NWA was on the verge of going backrupt and NWA was becoming a puppet of WCW. Just look at the example of the World Tags WCW had to help revive them in 1992. So the Big Gold does represent 1948 - 1991</span>

<span style='font-family:Arial'>Yes it did represent the WCW International title till 1994 when it was unified but that belt was the biggest joke in professional wrestling to this day.</span>

<span style='font-family:Arial'>1994 - March 2001 - It was used as the WCW World Title and was releathered but only as a cosmetic thing there was never any replicas made. Ric Flair sold them the belt given to him by Jim Crokett to Ted Turner after the 1991 WWF "Real Worlds Champion Sotryline was Dropped" in and around Jan - Feb 1992</span>

<span style='font-family:Arial'>March of 2001 Booker T walks onto WWF Televsion and is announced at the WCW World Heavyweight Champion & WCW US Champion. Booker T was only a 4 time champion then. He had won the belt from Scott Steiner on the last Nitro ever.</span>

<span style='font-family:Arial'>March 2001 - November 2001 was used as the Top Title in the Alliance Invasion Storyline. you know WCW/ECW VS WWF. For the most part the title did not even have a name plate. Booker T walks into Summer Slam 01 and if you look closley at the title there is no name on the name place.. most of the champions during the Invasion story line did not have there name on the title. It was roumored that Booker T pulled one of his name plates out of storage and had it put on himself. The only name I can tell by going over the Tapes/DVDs that Vince paid for was The Rock and his 2 titles</span>

<span style='font-family:Arial'>November 19th 2001 Vice renames the WCW World Title to World Title thus dropping the WCW name for the last time on WWF TV. This is because WCW/ECW lost to the WWF at Survivor Series 2001.</span>

<span style='font-family:Arial'>Then came December and Vengance 2001 were the WWF & WCW titles were uinified into one Undisputed Champion. You are right tho Chris Jerichos Website does state he won both but never did read Undisputed Champion.. thus bringing the question forward did Vince hope to kill the WCW name with the unification of the World Titles or was this just a failed time line in the WWF/WWE/Smackdown! World title?</span>

<span style='font-family:Arial'>It Was carried till April 1st 2002 when Triple H came out wearing the new Undisputed Title.. but the belt never said undisputed title just World Wrestling Federation Champion.. but was annouced as Undisputed Champion (The Rock was the first man to wear the belt in July saying World Wrestling Entertainment Champion)</span>

<span style='font-family:Arial'>August 2002 when Brock Lesnar won the Undisputed title from The Rock at Summer Slam 02 he was signed to wrestle only for Smackdown! thus making the title disputed. </span>

<span style='font-family:Arial'>The Week after in September 02 GM Eric Bischoff awards Triple H the No 1 Contender the Orginal WCW World Title.. You know the same belt that Ric Flair wore with his name on the name plate. </span>

<span style='font-family:Arial'>He wore that belt untill March 10th 2003 when on Sunday Night Heat in a Match VS Maven he wears a copy of the big gold belt with the WWE initals on it.. this is the first time in the History of the Big Gold that there has ever been promotional initals on it. Vince also made the gold brighter and shineyer then ever. </span>

<span style='font-family:Arial'>Thus you have the history of the NWA/WCW/WWF/WWF Alliance/ WWE RAW World Heavyweight Title (<a href='http://"http://wwe.mjsd.ca/title-history/world"' target='_blank'>http://wwe.mjsd.ca/title-history/world</a>) from the way I see it.</span>

<span style='font-family:Arial'>Some thing else to note: After Brock When exclusive to Smackdown! Vince took the WWE Title and changed the side plates around and made the gold a bit darker. Thus making the title seem a bit different. </span>
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Postby Dan Poutsma » 2003/12/24 Wed 3:22 am

mattitude wrote:Talison,

You make a lot of good arguments for this belt but this is the way I see it.

From 1948 - 1991 that belt Represented the NWA.. when WCW was slowly starting to change all the Television over to the WCW name it was because the NWA was on the verge of going backrupt and NWA was becoming a puppet of WCW. Just look at the example of the World Tags WCW had to help revive them in 1992. So the Big Gold does represent 1948 - 1991


According to Meltzer, WCW decided to phase out references to the NWA because the philosophy and politics of the time were that things were changing, old school was out, new school was in, and that history was no longer important. So since the NWA name had a rich tradition behind it, it represented the past and they felt they had to get rid of it.

As for the titles, they were and are different; bottom line, end of story. Didn't matter what kind of power WCW may have had. The moment the folks at Turner started calling the NWA World champ the 'WCW' World champ, they legally created a whole new title/piece of intellectual property. Two different organizations, two different championships, regardless of whether they were held by the same man and symbolized by the same belt (and just a reminder once again, belts are NOT titles themselves). And as far as the NWA being WCW's puppet is concerned, I don't think it's accurate to say that they were completely pulling all the strings because even after Jim Herd fired Flair and stripped him of the WCW title, the NWA Board of Directors continued to recognize him as their own champion until he ended up signing with Titan a couple of months later (and that alone shoots down the myth that they were the same championship right there).

Also, you stated that the NWA was on the verge of bankruptcy. Maybe you don't know this, but WCW lost millions of dollars itself the first few years of it's existence and only stayed alive because Turner had a soft spot for wrestling since it always drew high ratings for TBS and played a significant role in bringing him and his empire to the dance. In fact, their goal in the early days wasn't so much trying to actually make money and turn a profit as it was trying to limit how much money they anticipated they were going to LOSE. So even though the NWA was in bad shape in terms of it's rather minute membership, that doesn't necessarily mean they were on the verge of bankruptcy. Unless you have documentation that will actually prove your claim to be true, don't state it as "fact".
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