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NWA, WCW, and RAW World Heavyweight Titles

Pre-1990 topics only.

Postby joeyi » 2003/08/09 Sat 9:33 am

World Championship Wrestling World Heavyweight Title (91-01)
World Championship Wrestling World Heavyweight Title (wwe owned) 01
Worlds Titles (november 01)
WWE Undisputed Title (01-02)
World Heavyweight Championship (RAW) (02-03)

does this work too??
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Postby edgehead1984 » 2003/08/09 Sat 10:56 am

Ric Flair was also billed as the Undisputed WWF champion after he won the Royal Rumble in 1992.

I know that the WWF had bought all of WCW's intellectual proprety in march of 2001, which included their titles and the belts representing the titles. That only applies for the period March 2001-November 2001.

Big Goldy was not abandoned in april 2002. It was just unified with the Attitude belt in the new eagle belt.

But I am certain that Bischoff said that this was a brand new title when he awarded Big Goldy to Trip.
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Postby joeyi » 2003/08/09 Sat 11:01 am

RAW title was not created...it was disputed...and one half og teh dispute was given to HHH...

RAW 2nd September 2002 at Milwaukee, WI the General Manager of RAW Eric Bischoff explains that the "WWE Undisputed title is very much disputed" and awards the "World Heavyweight Title" to Triple H. i know for a fact he said what i quoted.

this is from a recap in tsn.ca

tsn.ca Staff

9/2/2002
Eric Bischoff kicked off RAW from the Bradley Center in Milwaukee by addressing the sell-out crowd. The controversial general manager grabbed the microphone and stated that Brock Lesnar’s Undisputed World Title should be considered very, very disputed.

Bischoff reasoned that if Brock Lesnar consciously decided not to wrestle on RAW, then his Undisputed Title automatically becomes disputed. The fans deserve their own world champion, exclusive to RAW. Easy E told fans to forget about Brock and The Undertaker, who had recently been crowned the number one contender.

Bishcoff then introduced the man whom he felt was the “real” number one contender…Triple H.

Triple took possession of the mic and stated that Lesnar left RAW because he was terrified of Triple H. “Brock knows he can’t hang with me.” said Triple H, “Brock ran with his tail between his legs.”

The arena echoed with a chorus of boos as Triple H smiled with the cockiness of a champion. Bischoff said RAW deserved its own World Champion and proceeded to unveil the old WCW Title belt (last worn by Triple H). He crowned The Game as the new World Champion…RAW’s World Champion.

a second account of that night
Reporter: Fred Cook

The Raw music video plays, the pyros explode, and we are LIVE from Milwaukee , Wisconsin . Tonight, Rob Van Dam will defend the IC Title against Chris Jericho, and Shawn Michaels will give his first interview since SummerSlam! But first...

Raw GM Eric Bischoff comes to his ring carrying a briefcase and a smile. Brock Lesnar calls himself the Undisputed Heavyweight Champion of the world, but ever since his competitor made him exclusive to SmackDown, he has to dispute that claim. These fans deserve their own World Champion exclusive to Raw, the #1 brand in the history of sports-entertainment. Stephanie can call Undertaker the #1 Contender if she wants, and he can fight Brock Lesnar at Unforgiven. That’s fine. But we know who the real #1 Contender is, don’t we? The man who showed Undertaker that it’s better to be a big fish in a small pond on SmackDown than to swim with the sharks here on Raw. Here is your #1 Contender, Triple H!

The Game comes to the ring and says that Bischoff forget to say why Undertaker and Brock Lesnar had to leave the sharks. It’s all because of Triple H. Brock Lesnar knew he couldn’t hang in the ring with The Game. Hell, Lesnar shouldn’t even be able to say Triple H’s name. So when Triple H became the #1 Contender, Lesnar put his tail between his legs and ran. It turns out the Next Big Thing has no balls.

Bischoff says that’s what he loves about Triple H: he tells it like it is. If Bischoff could have signed Triple H way back when, the outcome of the Monday Night Wars would have been different. His accolades are tremendous, and they’re about to get even bigger tonight. Bischoff opens his briefcase and takes out the old WCW Heavyweight Title and reminds us that Triple H was the last man to wear that Title belt. And now, Triple H is once again the Heavyweight Champion of the World! Triple H accepts the belt and celebrates. He says that Bischoff is a good judge of talent, and definately a better judge than his ex-wife.
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Postby Talison » 2003/08/09 Sat 6:56 pm

[QUOTE=edgehead1984]Ric Flair was also billed as the Undisputed WWF champion after he won the Royal Rumble in 1992.[/QUOTE]

And he was. He was the one and only World Champion being recognized by the WWF.

[QUOTE=edgehead1984]I know that the WWF had bought all of WCW's intellectual proprety in march of 2001, which included their titles and the belts representing the titles. That only applies for the period March 2001-November 2001.[/QUOTE]

Why? They still own all the WCW Copyrights and properties. They still own the video library.

[QUOTE=edgehead1984]Big Goldy was not abandoned in april 2002. It was just unified with the Attitude belt in the new eagle belt.[/QUOTE]

Yes, but at that point Big Goldie was representing the Undisputed Title. As Dan has said, a belt is not a title.

[QUOTE=edgehead1984]But I am certain that Bischoff said that this was a brand new title when he awarded Big Goldy to Trip.[/QUOTE]

Absolutely not. Both Bischoff and Mean Jean on Confidential made it quite clear that the Title awarded to Triple H had the WCW Title Lineage, which WWE owns and can do with what they want.
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Postby edgehead1984 » 2003/08/09 Sat 7:07 pm

I remember Bischoff saying that it was a brand new title.
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Postby Talison » 2003/08/09 Sat 7:21 pm

[QUOTE=edgehead1984]I remember Bischoff saying that it was a brand new title.[/QUOTE]


Well, I really don't know what to tell you other than I remember it differently.

Third party, can we get a ruleing?
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Postby joeyi » 2003/08/09 Sat 7:44 pm

edgehead is very wrong...title was never created...it was disputed... for the love of *** that is a fact...

<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>tsn.ca Staff

9/2/2002
Eric Bischoff kicked off RAW from the Bradley Center in Milwaukee by addressing the sell-out crowd. The controversial general manager grabbed the microphone and stated that Brock Lesnar’s Undisputed World Title should be considered very, very disputed.

Bischoff reasoned that if Brock Lesnar consciously decided not to wrestle on RAW, then his Undisputed Title automatically becomes disputed. The fans deserve their own world champion, exclusive to RAW. Easy E told fans to forget about Brock and The Undertaker, who had recently been crowned the number one contender.

Bishcoff then introduced the man whom he felt was the “real” number one contender…Triple H.

Triple took possession of the mic and stated that Lesnar left RAW because he was terrified of Triple H. “Brock knows he can’t hang with me.” said Triple H, “Brock ran with his tail between his legs.”

The arena echoed with a chorus of boos as Triple H smiled with the cockiness of a champion. Bischoff said RAW deserved its own World Champion and proceeded to unveil the old WCW Title belt (last worn by Triple H). He crowned The Game as the new World Champion…RAW’s World Champion.

a second account of that night
Reporter: Fred Cook

The Raw music video plays, the pyros explode, and we are LIVE from Milwaukee , Wisconsin . Tonight, Rob Van Dam will defend the IC Title against Chris Jericho, and Shawn Michaels will give his first interview since SummerSlam! But first...

Raw GM Eric Bischoff comes to his ring carrying a briefcase and a smile. Brock Lesnar calls himself the Undisputed Heavyweight Champion of the world, but ever since his competitor made him exclusive to SmackDown, he has to dispute that claim. These fans deserve their own World Champion exclusive to Raw, the #1 brand in the history of sports-entertainment. Stephanie can call Undertaker the #1 Contender if she wants, and he can fight Brock Lesnar at Unforgiven. That’s fine. But we know who the real #1 Contender is, don’t we? The man who showed Undertaker that it’s better to be a big fish in a small pond on SmackDown than to swim with the sharks here on Raw. Here is your #1 Contender, Triple H!

The Game comes to the ring and says that Bischoff forget to say why Undertaker and Brock Lesnar had to leave the sharks. It’s all because of Triple H. Brock Lesnar knew he couldn’t hang in the ring with The Game. Hell, Lesnar shouldn’t even be able to say Triple H’s name. So when Triple H became the #1 Contender, Lesnar put his tail between his legs and ran. It turns out the Next Big Thing has no balls.

Bischoff says that’s what he loves about Triple H: he tells it like it is. If Bischoff could have signed Triple H way back when, the outcome of the Monday Night Wars would have been different. His accolades are tremendous, and they’re about to get even bigger tonight. Bischoff opens his briefcase and takes out the old WCW Heavyweight Title and reminds us that Triple H was the last man to wear that Title belt. And now, Triple H is once again the Heavyweight Champion of the World! Triple H accepts the belt and celebrates. He says that Bischoff is a good judge of talent, and definately a better judge than his ex-wife.</span>
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Postby Dan Poutsma » 2003/08/09 Sat 11:22 pm

Alright, let's look at the "Undisputed" title for what it really was.

The WWF and WCW were recognized as the two prominant companies in North America, and perhaps arguably the world. As such, their championships were also recognized as the two most prominant titles. The ECW title was dead, and the NWA title and all other major championships were obviously not taken into consideration.

After WCW was "put out of business" in the "winner take all" match at the Survivor Series' 01, the WWF took control over both the WCW Heavyweight title and WCW Cruiserweight title, which were the only championships not "unified" with WWF titles that night. Now being championships officially sanctioned by the World Wrestling Federation, the WCW Cruiserweight title became the WWF Cruiserweight title, while the WCW Heavyweight title simply became the "World" title. That being the case, the WWF now recognized two different champions: it's original title, the WWF championship, and the "World" title, the old WCW championship.

In order to solve that problem, they held the mini-tournament at Vengeance to crown an "Undisputed" champion. It would eventually be won by Jericho, who defeated Austin to "unify" the titles and become THE champion of the World Wrestling Federation, and to many, the Undisputed champion IN GENERAL because, as I previously mentioned, those championships were largely considered the two most prominant titles in the business itself.

However, the way I see it, the moment upon "unification" and "creation" of the Undisputed title, the "World" title was abandoned. Why? Well, allow me to make a little analogy.

When Edge beat Test at Survivor Series to "unify' the IC title with the U.S. title, it was done so under the IC name. There was at least one person on here who made the argument that when Stephanie announced the tournament for the U.S. title, she "un-unified" those two titles. But if that's so, wouldn't every champion who held the IC title after the unification also be considered a former U.S. champion as well? To me, that doesn't make any sense. If the U.S. title was completely dropped and no further mention was made of it, then it was abandoned, pure and simple, with Edge (who held the title going into the match) being the last official champion of record. It wasn't until recently that the title was resurrected (and that's the exact word they used) with Eddie Guerrero winning it.

Now, back to the World title. Like the U.S. title, it was also said to be "resurrected" or "brought back". If it was being brought back, then there was a period where it was inactive. Meaning that after the original unification, it was officially abandoned, with Jericho being the last man to have held it because he went into the match with Austin as the champion. So the "Undisputed" title carries the history of the WWF/E title, not the World title.

Furthermore, when Bischoff disputed Lesnar's claim to the "Undisputed" title, that's ALL he was stripping him of was that particular designation. To say that he was stripping him of a certain PORTION of the title is ludicrious. After the "unification", there was ONE title recognized by ONE organization, and that was the WWF/E title. When Lesnar (the WWE champion) signed exclusively with SmackDown!, RAW disputed it and brought back the World title to serve as their own championship, awarding it to Triple H on the grounds that he had been the official #1 contender to Lesnar's title.

If you don't believe any of this, look at the edition of Confidential where they did their history piece. There was no mention at all of the World title continuing on as part of the Undisputed title along with the WWE title. Because if it had, they couldn't have rightfully said that they were "bringing it back" since it never would've ceased to exist in the first place.
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Postby joeyi » 2003/08/10 Sun 1:59 am

Dan Poutsma- i think ur right...

i somehow don't wanna see that the (wcw) world title was abondoned...as apart of the Undisputed Title...but i think it was...
I would like to think Undisputed means that the titles remain intact as a union.

and Unified means that one title will retire...thats why...i think they unified the tag titles and us title..and gave the world title an undisputed billing.

The world title never lost that name of undisputed ...and undisputed really means certain, definite, undoubted, and unquestionable.

As you said about the nwa(they didn't have a champion at the time)
and ecw being dead meant that the two world titles with the wwe were the only two remaing decentdants of the famous 1905 World Title on a national TV scale

therefore undisputed champion meant definite Heavyweight Champion of the two wwe world titles. By using the word Undisputed...that means to me that they remember each title as seperate titles coming togther to form a new title, and bill each title bearer not as a wwe or world champ but as an undisputed champion...

Then again i don't know anymore....this is mad fun!!
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Postby oknazevad » 2003/08/10 Sun 2:59 am

[QUOTE=joeyi]By using the word Undisputed...that means to me that they remember each title as seperate titles coming togther to form a new title, and bill each title bearer not as a wwe or world champ but as an undisputed champion...

Then again i don't know anymore....this is mad fun!!
joeyi[/QUOTE]

I think this wording nails the situation right on its proverbial head. There are two reasons that the "Undisputed Championship" was so called. One was that the champion simultaneously held the two most prominent and broadly recognized heavyweight titles of the past decade, and the only ones that the average casual fan would know about. And the second was that the "Undisputed Champion" was the only male member of the overall WWE talent pool who could move between the two shows. The second of these shouildn't be dismissed lightly, as that is the very reason the tiles became split. When Lesnar refused to go to Raw, he was stripped of recognition by Raw, which laid claim to the World Heavyweight Championship. I guess we can pressume that Bischoff took that portion because of nostalgia for his WCW glory days, while Steph didn't care about that part because, being Vince's daughter, she considered the WWE Championship to be the real title anyway. I do agree that the U.S. title is a case of a retired belt being un-retired, the same as the IC title.
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Postby joeyi » 2003/08/10 Sun 9:50 am

[QUOTE=oknazevad]There are two reasons that the "Undisputed Championship" was so called. One was that the champion simultaneously held the two most prominent and broadly recognized heavyweight titles of the past decade, and the only ones that the average casual fan would know about. second was that the "Undisputed Champion" was the only male member of the overall WWE talent pool who could move between the two shows.[/QUOTE]
Agreed

[QUOTE=oknazevad]When Lesnar refused to go to Raw, he was stripped of recognition by Raw, which laid claim to the World Heavyweight Championship. [/QUOTE]
I guess this means that you agree with me and think that the undisputed title is a continuation of both the world title and wwe title lineages

WORLD Rock-Y2J-Rock-Y2J (Y2J won the last world title match during the unifcataion tounarment not during the undisputed match making him the last world champ and first undisputed champion...
Then(Undisputed)Y2J

WWE Austin-Angle-Austin Then (Undisputed) Y2J

Each Lineage does not die....it is continued Under the billing of teh Undisputed Champ...if they wanted to retire it, WWE would have dubbed the tournay and unifcation tourney...and say Y2J was the first unified world champ...i beleive the Verbage is the key the word Undisputed allows each belts to have the lineage of teh undisputed title, in their own lineages...only to be split and seperate titles once again in septemeber.

It makes sense, i don't know how many of you here have looked at all the world titles of the past since the late 1800's and REALLY STUDIED THEM. Titles have been unified and UNunified and yet they still kept their same lineage, are apart of a unified title and then are broken away to a new territory.
JOEY I.
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Postby edgehead1984 » 2003/08/10 Sun 10:58 am

Joey can you give me some examples of such titles.
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Postby joeyi » 2003/08/10 Sun 12:13 pm

[QUOTE=edgehead1984]Joey can you give me some examples of such titles.[/QUOTE]

American Wrestling Association
World Heavyweight Title (Boston version)
Ed "Strangler" Lewis 28/02/21 St. Louis, MO
Wins the World Heavyweight title, defeating Joe Stecher on 28/02/21 in St. Louis, MO.
Gus Sonnenberg 29/01/04 Boston, MA
Ed Don George 30/12/10 Los Angeles, CA
Ed "Strangler" Lewis [2] 31/04/14 Los Angeles, CA
Henri Deglane 31/05/04 Montreal, QC
Wins by DQ after allegedly being bitten; recognized in Boston and Montreal as AWA champion; Lews still recognizd in Illinois.

Ed Don George [2] 33/02/09 Boston, MA
Danno O'Mahoney 35/07/30 Boston, MA
Reigning NYSAC and National Wrestling Association World champion, defeats Ed Don George on 35/07/30 to be the Undisputed World Heavyweight champion; loses to Dick Shikat on 36/03/02 in New York, NY but continues to be recognized as champion by AWA.

Yvon Robert 36/07/13 Montreal, ON
Stripped in 37/12 for not defending against Lou Thesz.
Lou Thesz 37/12/29 St. Louis, MO
Defeats Everette Marshal for MWA title and is presented the AWA title.

EDGE HEAD IS THE WCW TITLE-THE WORLD HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMPIONSHIP???
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Postby Dan Poutsma » 2003/08/10 Sun 4:09 pm

Alright.

After WCW "went under", the WWF took control of the WCW championship and, from that point forward, officially sanctioned TWO different championships: The WWF championship and the "World" championship, which was what the WCW title was renamed.

Jericho unified them to become the Undisputed champion, with the term Undisputed serving a dual purpose. It meant that he was THE champion of the World Wrestling Federation, since the orgnanization now recognized one single champion, and also that he was THE champion in the wrestling business in general. Keep in mind that all of this happend BEFORE the brand extension.

After the unification, the World title was abandoned. Why? Because to be quite frank about it, they didn't need it anymore, at least for the time being. As I said, Jericho was the Undisputed champion of ONE SINGLE company. He held ONE SINGLE title and ONE title only, and that was the WWF championship. Did they continue to use both physical championship belts? Yes. But keep in mind what I said earlier, belts are NOT titles themselves. They are merely props used to represent them.

Almost immediately after Triple H won the title, they announced the brand extension. The proviso was that the "Undisputed" champion (the WWF/E champion) would compete for both RAW and SmackDown!. Over the course of the next several months, the title (now represented by a new physical belt, or prop) would go from Triple H, to Hogan, to Undertaker, to Rock, and finally to Lesnar.

In August, Triple H of RAW won a match to determine the #1 contender to the WWE title. However, Stephanie announced that she had signed the champion Lesnar to work exclusively for SmackDown!, meaning that the title would no longer be defended on RAW. In turn, SmackDown! crowned a new #1 contender for the title in the form of the Undertaker.

To counter this, on the September 2nd edition of RAW, Eric Bischoff announced that since Lesnar would no longer be allowed to defend the WWE title for that particular brand, he was disputing the claim that Lesnar was the "Undisputed" champion. He brought out Triple H, who was the "real" #1 contender before Lesnar tucked his tail between his legs and ran, and awarded him recognition as the new World heavyweight champion as recognized exclusively by RAW. If SmackDown! could have the WWE champion all to themselves, then RAW should also be allowed to have their own champion as well. This meant that the company officially sanctioned two different championships again, with SmackDown! recognizing the WWE title (now sans the name "Undisputed") and RAW recognizing the newly resurrected World heavyweight title.

Now here's the key, so pay attention: Bischoff NEVER SAID he was stripping Lesnar of ANY championship. The ONLY thing he said was that RAW no longer considered him the "Undisputed" champion. All he did was BRING BACK the World heavyweight championship (and the physical belt known as Big Goldy) and awarded them to Triple H. They made this ABUNDANTLY CLEAR on Confidential a couple of weeks later. They never acknowledged ONCE that the World title had continued on as part of the "Undisputed" title, or that Bischoff had stripped Lesnar of that so called "portion" of the title. Why not? Because Lesnar was ONLY the WWE champion. Granted, they called him the "Undisputed" WWE champion, but he was still only the WWE champion nevertheless. Once he jumped ship to work for SmackDown!, only his claim to being the UNDISPUTED champion was stripped. Not any championship ITSELF, only just that particular designation.

So to sum things up, after the initial unification of the WWF and World titles in December 2001, the so-called "Undisputed" title was ONLY the WWF/E championship. The World championship was officially abandoned upon the conclusion of that match and could officially be considered inactive until Bischoff brought it back in September of last year.
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Postby joeyi » 2003/08/10 Sun 6:57 pm

Dan
I kind of see your point, yet I keep really thinking that what makes the Undisputed title, the Undisputed title is being a combination of both titles. Which means either belt can never be phased out. And when one is phased out, that wrestler is no longer the undisputed champion. ( I see the terms…disputing the undisputed titles and stripping Brock Lesnar of one half of the undisputed title as the same thing) (What is the difference?)

Furthermore…if each title combined to make that title they should each share its future lineage. It’s like one member of the team doing all the work and the other getting all the glory. I know it was the WWE Undisputed Championship, and that name will never change, because it’s the WWE and the Alliance didn’t win at SS01.

After the unification, the World title was abandoned. Why? Because to be quite frank about it, they didn't need it anymore, at least for the time being. As I said, Jericho was the Undisputed champion of ONE SINGLE company. He held ONE SINGLE title and ONE title only, and that was the WWF championship.

Basically, I don’t see a reason how you can say they didn’t need it anymore. If it wasn’t for the world title, there would be no true undisputed champion. It’s the combination of the two world titles (world/wwe) that make the undisputed title, well UNDISPUTED. When you say they dropped the World Title portion that devalues the Undisputed title itself. That title needs both lineages to fuel its strength and importance in the industry.

They never acknowledged ONCE that the World title had continued on as part of the "Undisputed" title, or that Bischoff had stripped Lesnar of that so called "portion" of the title. Why not? Because Lesnar was ONLY the WWE champion. Granted, they called him the "Undisputed" WWE champion, but he was still only the WWE champion nevertheless
So you’re saying they just called Brock Lesnar the undisputed champion and he really wasn’t the champ. He was just the wwe champ. So that means that Taker, rock, hunter, and Hogan all were really wwe champs b/c they didn’t win a unification match like y2j.

So to sum things up, after the initial unification of the WWF and World titles in December 2001, the so-called "Undisputed" title was ONLY the WWF/E championship. The World championship was officially abandoned upon the conclusion of that match and could officially be considered inactive until Bischoff brought it back in September of last year.

By officially abandoning the world title, the undisputed title loses its meaning.

And upon The undisputed title’s eventual dispute, split, stripping, (it’s all the same, I can’t see how sit not) each title was sent into different brands (territories if you will). We can only speculate on why each titles name went in a certain direction.

<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>RAW- had Bishoff, and Flair- two major players involved with that title.
SMACKDOWN- had Stephanie- major ties with WWE name

This again is only speculation…but something I would think about when in a conference room writing Monday night raw and/or Thursday night SmackDown.
</span>
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