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NWA, WCW, and RAW World Heavyweight Titles

Pre-1990 topics only.

Postby Dan Poutsma » 2003/08/07 Thu 10:58 pm

Interesting point.

Question though. In boxing, if one guy already holds a world title recognized by say, the IBF, and goes onto win another world title sanctioned by another one of the alphabet organizations, don't they count that as an additional overall world championship for him?
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Postby oknazevad » 2003/08/07 Thu 11:36 pm

No, they don't. In fact, that was my exact model in describing the situation. For example, when Mike "Broke" Tyson first won a world title in 1986 (the WBC, to be exact), he went on to win the other 2 belts and held them for some time before losing them to Buster Douglas. But he was only considered a 1-time champ. The same could be said of Lennox Lewis, who is considered a 3-time champ, even though during the course of his second reign he reunified the undisputed championship.
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Postby joeyi » 2003/08/08 Fri 12:40 pm

so basically...this is where we stand...should y2j be next in line after the rock and stone cold steve austin as respective world champion and wwe champion

world
rock- y2j - rock
y2j

wwe
austin- angle- austin
y2j

then undisputed champion
y2j - hhh- hogan- taker- rock
brock

world
hhh- hbk- hhh

wwe
brock- show- angle- brock
angle

when did the undisputed championhsip become the undisputed championship? was it the second Jericho beat Austin for the wwe championship or was it the second after

therefore only giving the first two matches of that tournament the right to claim (at the time) the last champion of thier lineage.

i am thinking my above list is incorrect.

y2j was the last world champ (at that time) and austin is the last wwe champ (at that time) their respective matches rock/jericho and austin/angle were the matches to crown the last champs of the respective titles lineages.

y2j is 2 time world champ
and a 1 time undisputed champion...
he won the world title twice and the undisputed title once
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Postby Talison » 2003/08/08 Fri 2:47 pm

Just for the record, I don't list Brock as an Undisputed Champion in my personal listings. Yes, he won the Undisputed Championship from The Rock but he never defended it as such. So I just list him as a 2 Time WWE Champion.

Speaking of which, has anyone else noticed you can count Brock's successful title defences on one hand? Ones we have actually seen anyway, not House Show ones.
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Postby joeyi » 2003/08/08 Fri 5:46 pm

when you win a championship, you don't have to defend it to be recognized as that champion...you won the belt ur the champ.
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Postby Dan Poutsma » 2003/08/08 Fri 10:44 pm

Originally posted by joeyi
so basically...this is where we stand...should y2j be next in line after the rock and stone cold steve austin as respective world champion and wwe champion

[B]world

rock- y2j - rock
y2j

wwe
austin- angle- austin
y2j

then undisputed champion
y2j - hhh- hogan- taker- rock
brock

world
hhh- hbk- hhh

wwe
brock- show- angle- brock
angle

when did the undisputed championhsip become the undisputed championship? was it the second Jericho beat Austin for the wwe championship or was it the second after

therefore only giving the first two matches of that tournament the right to claim (at the time) the last champion of thier lineage.

i am thinking my above list is incorrect.

y2j was the last world champ (at that time) and austin is the last wwe champ (at that time) their respective matches rock/jericho and austin/angle were the matches to crown the last champs of the respective titles lineages.

y2j is 2 time world champ
and a 1 time undisputed champion...
he won the world title twice and the undisputed title once [/B]


The WWF/E title and the "Undisputed" WWF/E title are recognized as the same championship. So Jericho is a two time former WCW/World champion (holding the WCW title once and the World title once after it was renamed when WCW "went out of business"), and a one time former WWF/E champion (under the "Undisputed" name)

When Hogan beat Triple H, he was billed as a six time WWE champion, with it being his first reign as the "Undisputed" champion.
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Postby edgehead1984 » 2003/08/08 Fri 11:37 pm

I can't believe this discussion still is going on.

The NWA, WCW and WWE RAW World Titles have no lineage or relationship with each other. They are three different titles, by three different companies.

Ric Flair was recognized as the 1st WCW champion when WCW replaced the NWA with the WCW titles, but the NWA board still existed and recognized their own title.

When Triple H was presented with Big Goldy, Big Goldy was awarded as the World's Heavyweight Champion, while the title before the "undisputed" unification was simply called the World Championship, the Heavyweight was never mentioned. The belt was old but the title was new.

Big Goldy has represented 6 different titles.

NWA World Heavyweight Title
Real World Heavyweight Title (Ric Flair)
WCW International World Heavyweight Title
WCW World Heavyweight Title (World Championship)
WWF Undisputed World Heavyweight Title
WWE RAW World Heavyweight Title

These 6 title have no lineage to one another but they were all represented by Bug Goldy at one point or another.
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Postby oknazevad » 2003/08/09 Sat 1:12 am

joeyi wrote

when you win a championship, you don't have to defend it to be recognized as that champion...you won the belt ur the champ.

Agreed. Lesnar was announced as the "Undisputed Champion" at Summerslam after winning the belt, and was referred to as that the next night on Raw (and that week's Smackdown!). He was the "Undisputed Champion" until he was stripped of the World Heavyweight Championship on 2 Sept 2002, just over a week after winning the title.

Dan wrote

The WWF/E title and the "Undisputed" WWF/E title are recognized as the same championship. So Jericho is a two time former WCW/World champion (holding the WCW title once and the World title once after it was renamed when WCW "went out of business"), and a one time former WWF/E champion (under the "Undisputed" name)

When Hogan beat Triple H, he was billed as a six time WWE champion, with it being his first reign as the "Undisputed" champion.


The terminology is just a little unclear, ain't it. What you say is true, Jericho is a 2-time (WCW) World Heavyweight Champion, and a 1-time WWE Champion, with two overall world championship reigns, the second as "Undisputed Champion."

And Hogan is a 6-time WWE Champion, with the sixth and most recent title reign being an "Undisputed" title. Of course this means that he could also be considered a 7-time World Heavyweight Champion. Just no one ever says that because no one ever expected the titles to be deunified (I _think_ that's a word.)

Which is why I believe that the period wher the titles were unified should really be considered a special case, where the number of times that each of those champions heald each of the titles should be listed. As such, here's the way I'd list them

Date - Champion (WWE) {ex-WCW}

12/01 - Chris Jericho (1) {2} 2nd overall

3/02 - Triple H (5) {1} 5th overall

4/02 - Hulk Hogan (6) {7} 12th overall

5/02 - the Undertaker (4) {1} 4th overal

7/02 - the Rock (7) {3} 9th overall

8/02 - Brock Lesnar (1) {1} 1st overall

And of course, that's when the titles were split. Subsequently, imo, any listing of the post-split World Heavyweight Championship should say:

9/2/02 - Triple H {2} 6th overall

11/02 - Shawn Michaels {1} 4th overall

12/02 - Triple H {3} 7th overall

And, just because I like writing these things, the WWE Championship since then:

8/02 - Brock Lesnar (1) 1st overall

11/02 - Big Show (2) 4th overall

12/02 - Kurt Angle (3) 4th overall

3/03 - Brock Lesnar (2) 2nd overall

7/03 - Kurt Angle (4) 5th overall

edgehead1984 wrote

Big Goldy has represented 6 different titles.

NWA World Heavyweight Title
Real World Heavyweight Title (Ric Flair)
WCW International World Heavyweight Title
WCW World Heavyweight Title (World Championship)
WWF Undisputed World Heavyweight Title
WWE RAW World Heavyweight Title

These 6 title have no lineage to one another but they were all represented by Bug Goldy at one point or another.


I vehemently disagree. For one thing, nobody actually considers Flair's "Real World's Champion" bit an actual title. But more importantly, while you're right that the WCW title was never really the NWA title (They just claimed it was the true successor to the pre '91 lineage, which, considering the NWA _did_ briefly recognize Luger as champ before withdrawing recognition and striking it from the record books, they may have a point.) that the World Heavywight Championship on Raw _is_ the former WCW title is exactly what WWE has said, and therefore is not debatable. They said exactly that in the 2003 Yearbook magazine that was published around Wrestlemania time and contained their definitive title histories. Alas, you can't find it anymore, but I'd look for a new version next year around the same time.
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Postby joeyi » 2003/08/09 Sat 1:15 am

edge head--

the NWA title is its own belt

the wcw turned in to the world champion in novmeber of 2001

then turn into part of the undisputed title in dec.2001

then in august 2002 brock went to smakc down...bisch "disputed" the undisputed title...he gave RAW half...to HHH..he never created anything..he disputed it get it staright...
how come when you mention the Worlds Heavyweight Championsh (august)is the same as the Worlds Champion (novmebr) u fail to mention that the worlds champion novmber was teh WCW champion same linegae...

NWA has nothing to do with it..i cna't beleive we still talk about this...

the wwe undisputed title is refered to as wwe title... when it was in use...b/c it tuff verbage transition...the undisputed title is NOT the same the wwe or world title ...iot is both of them combine..under the wwe banner combination of both i sbigger than each bythem selves

i love these disscusions!!
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Postby joeyi » 2003/08/09 Sat 1:42 am

Number of Titles

The WWE Undisputed Championship is a combination of the (WCW)World Title/WWE World Title
The Word “Undisputed” means ((WCW)World Title/WWE World Title)

This is where we get confused. But hear this out!

Y2J Vs the Rock in December 2001 as well as
Austin Vs Angle in December 2001 were the last respective world title and wwe title matches at that time…after those matches (hypothetically) there would be no world title matches and no wwe title matches. Just Undisputed wwe title matches.

Jericho won the world title in December
Austin retained his wwe title that same night

Jericho NEVER EEEVER WON a wwe title…when he beat Austin he created an Undisputed Title… which means by beating stone cold…he won the undisputed title the only title on the line in the Austin Jericho match.

The last wwe champion before the undisputed title was AUSTIN
The last world champion before the undisputed title was JERICHO

This could all be wrong…cuz maybe Jericho was wwe champion for a split second
After he pinned Austin, then the following second he became undisputed champion..
Hmmmmmmmmmmm

When you win the undisputed title…u don’t win the world title and the wwe title…you win an undisputed championship…b/c u didn’t win each title u won a unified version of both belts

I dnno what else… I could go all night!!
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Postby Talison » 2003/08/09 Sat 2:20 am

I think I either was misunderstood or worded myself incorrectly on my comment about Lesnar.

Yes, he is a former undisputed champion. He beat The Undisputed Champion at Summerslam (not just beat him, destyroyed him if I remember) and was such untill one half of his Title was taken from him.

My point was that in my listings I made a conscience decision to list the Undisputed Title seperately from the WWE World and (WCW) World Titles. As such I list Jericho as a one time WCW Champion and a one time Undisputed Champion. I list Hogan as a 5 time WWF Champion, 6 time WCW Champion, and 1 time Undisputed Champion.

I understand that The Undisputed Championship was the "WWE" Undisputed Championship, but I listed them seperately to signify which people had held the "combined" Titles.

So, I list Brock Lesnar as a 2 time WWE Champion (just to keep my numbers strait) but have the following notes:

"Brock Lesnar is not listed as an Undisputed Champion, only a WWF Champion. Although he won the Undisputed Title from The Rock at SummerSlam 2003, he never defended the Title against a Raw contracted wrestler, choosing to only compete on Smackdown. Raw General Manager Eric Bischoff pulled his recognition of Lesnar as The Undisputed Champion and The Undisputed Title was split again into The WWF and WCW Titles. As Brock only ever defended the WWF Title and the WCW Title was taken from him, he is not listed as an Undisputed Champion for purposes of counting his Title reigns."

I could just as easily listed him as a 1 time Undisputed Chmapion, and 1 time WWF Champion with a different note. But since I am doing this in a spreadsheet that is counting reigns and counting the length of reigns I wanted to make sure it calculated te right number of reigns.

My comment on him never defending the Undisputed Title was not to suggest that that disqualified his claim to the Title. I list Rhyno as a 1 time ECW Champion and I'm not sure he ever defended the Title. I bring up his non-defence situation as the reason he was stripped of his undisputed status.

I still don't think he has been a very good Champion, but that's my opinion and a whole other conversation.

Hope that clears things up.
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Postby Dan Poutsma » 2003/08/09 Sat 2:35 am

*sigh*

You all are giving me a massive headache with this stuff.

FACT: WWE purchased the rights to all of WCW's intellectual property, including it's titles and their associated histories. So if they wanna say (which they HAVE) that the championship currently held by Triple H is the former WCW World heavyweight championship that was once held by Flair, Luger, Sting, Vader, Ron Simmons, Hulk Hogan, Goldberg, Booker T., yadda yadda, they have every legal right to do so. Howver, they DON'T have the right to say it's the same as the NWA World title because A) factually, the NWA never became WCW and B) legally, they don't own the right to the NWA trademark.

FACT: The WWF/E "Undisputed" title (which is what it was referred to after it's "unification" with the former WCW World title) WAS the same WWF title held in the past by Hogan, Savage, Bret Hart, Backlund, Austin, etc., and IS the same title currently held by Kurt Angle.

Technically, even though Jericho was the man who "unified" the titles and was the first to be billed as "Undisputed" champion (which is actually a bit of revisionist history itself in a sense since Savage was actually billed as the "Undisputed" WWF champ for quite sometime after he won the tournament at Wrestlemania IV), it was and is recognized as a continuation of the history of the WWF title, despite the fact that they continued to use BOTH the WWF championship belt itself AND Big Goldy to physically represent it for a few months afterwards until they finally replaced them with a new championship belt. So after the so-called "unification", the World title was abandoned (even though the physical belt that had been used to represent it, Big Goldy, wasn't), and wasn't officially "brought back" until Bischoff disputed Lesnar's claim to the "Undisputed" title. From that point on, what had been referred to as the "Undisputed" title began being referred to as just the WWE title again, while Triple H was awarded the revived World title (which is exactly how they put it on Confidential) that was last held by Jericho prior to the "unification'.

So in reality, I think this arguement over the whole Undisputed title deal can basically be traced back to what I explained earlier, that belts aren't titles. A lot of people are of the opinion that Jericho (and also Triple H) continued to hold both the WWF and World titles simultaneously because they continued to use both physical championship belts for a few months after the "unification". But in reality, that was not true. They only held ONE title that was represented by TWO belts, and it remained that way until they replaced them both in favor of a new belt during Trip's reign.

In actuality, it's really no different than Flair's reign as NWA and WCW champion back in 1991, but in reverse. Since he held one belt, people automatically assumed that he held only one title. But in reality, that was not the case at all. He actually held TWO different titles recognized by two different organzations, even though both titles were represented by the same physical belt. As it pertains to the WWF/E's "Undisputed" title, it was merely ONE title sanctioned by one organization, but (at first) just so happend to be represented by two belts.
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Postby Talison » 2003/08/09 Sat 3:48 am

Well said, oh Guru of Titles.
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Postby joeyi » 2003/08/09 Sat 8:02 am

Well Stated..i Just don't see how the undisputed title is (was) the same title macho, hogan, andre, hart, austin had?

this undisputed was unified and combined with the wcw title...therefore i don't see how teh undisputed title...is the same as the wwe title of HBK, Sid, backlund?

Its a bigger and more pretigous title b/c of it being unified with the wcw world...

Macho was undisputed b/c it sounded cool...he was wwe champ after beating all those men...in teh tourny.

even micheal buffer calls the wcw world title ( iknow he still did it in 2000) the undisputed wcw champion.

I DON NOT AGREE that the wwe title alla shiek..rodgers and samartino is teh SAME championship that jerichobilled himslef as.

please elaborate... i am willing to be convince cuz in my listings have...the undisputed title listinmg continued under the wwe world and wcw world...then splitting apart in september of 2002

BTW...thanks for clearing that up Talison...everything makes perfect sense now...
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Postby TJ Vermeer » 2003/08/09 Sat 9:15 am

I agree with Dan.

Basically, Hisa could have listed the 'official' names of the WWWFE title as follows:

- World Wide Wrestling Federation World Heavyweight Title(1963/04 - 1971)
- World Wide Wrestling Federation Heavyweight Title (1971 - 1979/03)
- World Wrestling Federation Heavyweight Title (1979/03 - 1983)
- World Wrestling Federation World Heavyweight Title (1983 - 2001/12)
- World Wrestling Federation Undisputed World Heavyweight Title (2001/12 - 2002/05)
- World Wrestling Entertainment Undisputed World heavyweight Title (2002/05 - 2002/09)
- World Wrestling Entertainment World Heavyweight Title [Smackdown brand] (2002/09 - today)
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