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RAW's championship, a new championship!

Postby JustS2pendous » 2003/06/13 Fri 11:18 am

Okay, clarification time.

Nov 01, WCW officially dead, WCW Champion = The Rock
WCW World Title re-named The World Champion = The Rock
The Rock loses the World title to Jericho who unifies it with the WWE Title by beating Steve Austin.
The World title ceases to exist as the unified title is named as the WWE Undisputed Championship with both the WWE Title and the World title representing the Championship in belt form.
Jericho loses the Undisputed title to HHH in April 02.
HHH is awarded a new belt for the Undisputed title and the old belts are put into the cupboard to gather dust.
Helmsley loses to Hogan(?), Hogan to Taker(was summer of 02 this bad?), Taker to Rock and fianlly Rock to Brock.
The no1 Contender at the time was HHH and The undisputed title was defended on both Raw and Smackdown with HHH being on Raw. Brock was signed to an exclusive contract to Smackdown which made him unable to defend against Lord Levesque. The title then in WWE's own words became "disputed" and the old World title was brought by Bischoff to Raw and awarded to the no 1 contender(as it would be in boxing for example). The World title was again represented by the former WCW World title belt. This made the WWE Undisputed title the WWE Championship but still represented by the WWE Undisputed belt(although it was made a little bigger)

Heavyweight was always implied and ofter added to the title, depending on who was talking about the championship, ie Bret Hart and Jim Ross always called the WWF title the World Champion.
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Postby Dan Poutsma » 2003/06/17 Tue 4:39 pm

Originally posted by SpirituXBomba
It was again Called the World Heavyweight TitleJust Like how Rick Rude after beating Sting, was The Last NWA champion to hold the Big Gold, prior to the belt becoming the WCW International World Heavyweight title, as the Company(WCW) withdrew from The NWA in 1993.


Flair was the last NWA World champion prior to WCW's withdrawal from the NWA, not Rude. Likewise, when Rude beat Flair (not Sting) at Fall Brawl, he was originally tauted as having won simply the "Big Gold Belt", not any title. It wasn't until a short time later that he began being billed as the "World heavyweight champion" as recognized by the ficticious sanctioning body known as "WCW International".
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RAW title is linked to wcw which isn't linked to NWA

Postby joeyi » 2003/06/18 Wed 2:19 am

there were two world heavyweight titles in late 80's (awa closed in 91)

the NWA and WWE(wwf past is WWE) WCW breaks from NWA- this spilt right here means that WCW is new and sperate and has new linages for their titles.

that is why WWE cannot say..their RAW champ HHH has linage to NWA champions...but that title he does have the linage of RIc falir from 91, b/c WWE bought all of WCW...including title linage rights...

wcw title which was chnaged to the world title + wwe title =undisputed title.

wcw title (world) + wwe title =undisputed

when the undisputed title is disputed ...titles spilt back to wwe title and world title (heavyweight IS implide) therefore smackdown and raw are more solidfied as organizations with his disputed....

it was an historic night on septemebr 2...back to teh days of teh 1960's and wwe or 1991 and wcw or 1994 and ecw.

well the RAW world heavyweight title is the wcw title...just renamed...wwe title is the wwe title thanks buddy rodgers!..

the belts are props kids...(stone cold title...ric fliars gold belt)so it doesn't matter...the big gold belt confuses everybody including announces...there is not set history...gold belt was used as 2 title linages...nwa and wcw...but it represenst wcw linage...thats why wwe can have two world champions b/c they own two decade old title linages...

AJ Styles has the oldest though...sorry brock and hunter...the kids got u beat...peace
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Re: RAW title is linked to wcw which isn't linked to NWA

Postby Dan Poutsma » 2003/06/18 Wed 9:00 pm

[QUOTE]Originally posted by joeyi
...but that title he does have the linage of RIc falir from 91, b/c WWE bought all of WCW...including title linage rights...

Technically, WWFE didn't buy "all of WCW", i.e. they didn't buy the actual company itself that did business as "WCW", which was World Championship Wrestling, Inc. They just bought their more significant assets, including the video tape library, contracts of certain talent, championship belts, as well as all intellectual property (which is what the "WCW" name and all "title lineage rights" would fall under) and subsequently formed a new corporate entity called WCW, Inc. After the sale, the original company (World Championship Wrestling, Inc.) was renamed Universal Wrestling Corporation (which was what it was originally called when Turner first formed it) and continues to exist on paper as a subsidiary of AOL Time Warner to this very day.

...gold belt was used as 2 title linages...nwa and wcw...but it represenst wcw linage...thats why wwe can have two world champions b/c they own two decade old title linages...

Fwiw, the Gold Belt was also used to represent the "WCW International" World title from 1993-94 after WCW broke away from the NWA. It was abandoned in June 1994 after it was "unified" with the WCW World heavyweight title, at which point the belt was used to represent that particular championship again, replacing the generic looking WCW title belt.
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Postby bmf_51 » 2003/07/06 Sun 3:13 pm

Originally posted by Jim Elliott
...that he used to hold the WCW U.S. title.  Did he really hold it?  No.  it was the NWA U.S. title...  


The NWA and WCW aren't the same. But, the NWA and WCW US titles are the exact same title. The WCW took it with them when they formed their own company. Same thing goes for the Television title. Everything you said couldn't be more wrong.
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Postby Dan Poutsma » 2003/07/06 Sun 4:03 pm

Originally posted by Jim Elliott
The fact is, WCW and the NWA are one and the same.  I remember Greg Valentine on a radio show one time mentioning that he used to hold the WCW U.S. title.  Did he really hold it?  No.  it was the NWA U.S. title.  But, it proves that the NWA and WCW are one and the same.  The NWA that is out there today should be sued by WWE to get it shut down.  WWE can lay claim to the lineage of both the NWA and WCW world titles.


The National Wrestling Alliance (NWA) is and always has been an association of promoters since 1948. It never became World Championship Wrestling (WCW), which was a company established by Turner Broadcasting System in 1988 and a promotion that was merely one member of the NWA.

The title that Greg Valentine held was billed as the "NWA" U.S. championship. However, it was merely a company championship recognized by Jim Crockett Promotions, Inc. (JCP) out of Charlotte, NC, which was only an NWA member. It wasn't actually sanctioned by the National Wrestling Alliance itself, meaning it wasn't officially recognized by the full NWA Board of Directors.

In 1988, Turner Broadcasting System bought out Jim Crockett Promotions (which referred to itself as "the NWA", but in earnest, was actually not) and created a new business entity called Universal Wrestling Corporation, which was later renamed World Championship Wrestling, Inc. In doing so, they assumed control of all the "NWA" titles that had previously been recognized by JCP, and continued to refer to them as that until late 1990/early 1991 when they phased out the NWA name and replaced it with the letters "WCW" (although they remained a member of the NWA until 1993)

Thus, the "NWA" United States heavyweight title became the "WCW" United States heavyweight title, and all of the other "NWA" championships recognized solely by that company (World Championship Wrestling) also became "WCW" championships. However, regardless of perception, the NWA World heavyweight title never actually became the WCW World heavyweight title because, unlike all of the other titles recognized by JCP and later WCW, the NWA World heavyweight title was and is officially sanctioned by the National Wrestling Alliance itself and is recognized by the full NWA Board of Directors.
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Postby TJ Vermeer » 2003/07/06 Sun 5:24 pm

In my humble opinion, both the NWA and Raw/WCW title deserve the lineage of the NWA title, no matter who or what owns the right to some name.
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Postby Dan Poutsma » 2003/07/06 Sun 7:19 pm

Originally posted by TJ Vermeer
In my humble opinion, both the NWA and Raw/WCW title deserve the lineage of the NWA title, no matter who or what owns the right to some name.


If you wanna argue that the WCW/World/RAW/whatever title deserves to claim the history of the NWA title, then so should the WWF/E title, the AWA title, the Los Angeles WWA title, and any other championship that has it's roots essentially grounded in it. Going by that logic, not only are David Arquette and Vince Russo former NWA World champions, but technically, so is Vince McMahon.
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Postby TJ Vermeer » 2003/07/07 Mon 3:52 am

Okay, you got 'a' point, but don't you think the NWA/WCW title situation is bit different?

WCW was basically the NWA, or at least at one point the only NWA member running shows and the NWA title was WCW's main title. If it wasn't for politics the NWA and WCW title probably wouldn't have split. Lucky, TNA has signed a 10-year deal with the NWA or the same situation would have happened all over again. (I wonder if TNA will now stop billing the NWA champ as the NWA-TNA champ, which they have done!)

In the case of the AWA and WWWF, the confusion was probably created intentionally because some promoters wanted to start a whole new organization. In the case of the AWA and WWWF the NWA title was never used as the AWA of WWWF's top title and morphed into the AWA or WWWF title.
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Postby Dan Poutsma » 2003/07/07 Mon 10:32 pm

Originally posted by TJ Vermeer
Okay, you got 'a' point, but don't you think the NWA/WCW title situation is bit different?

WCW was basically the NWA, or at least at  one point the only NWA member running shows and the NWA title was WCW's main title. If it wasn't for politics the NWA and WCW title probably wouldn't have split. Lucky, TNA has signed a 10-year deal with the NWA or the same situation would have happened all over again. (I wonder if TNA will now stop billing the NWA champ as the NWA-TNA champ, which they have done!)


It doesn't matter what promoter/company controls it, monopolizes it, or decides to give an alternate acronym to it that they believe to be interchangeable.

The NWA World heavyweight title is a championship recognized by the full NWA Board of Directors and represents the entire membership of the National Wrestling Alliance, no matter how big or small.

Originally, the "WCW" World heavyweight championship was used by World Championship Wrestling, Inc. as an alternate name for the NWA World heavyweight championship because the champion had stopped traveling and, for all intents and purposes, had become their own "company champion". So they decided to label him as such.

But that's it right there. The WCW title was just that, a company championship. On the other hand, the NWA title represented more than just one company, even though one company monopolized it. That distinction was made when the NWA Board of Directors declared Flair was still their champion even after Jim Herd stripped him of the "WCW" title, proving that they were in actuality completely separate championships regardless of the perception given on TV.

So can one argue that the WCW title has lineage to the NWA title at all? Sure they can. But only during the time they first started referring to the NWA champion as the "WCW" champion (December 1990/January 1991) up until the time the titles were legally separated in July 1991.

The same goes for TNA. They might monopolize the NWA title just like WCW did (and also in turn, refer to it alternately as the "TNA" title), but the person who holds it will still represent the entire membership of the National Wrestling Alliance as their champion until the NWA Board of Directors says otherwise, regardless of whether or not he's also the "TNA" champion.

In the case of the AWA and WWWF, the confusion was probably created intentionally because some promoters wanted to start a whole new organization. In the case of the AWA and WWWF the NWA title was never used as the AWA of WWWF's top title and morphed into the AWA or WWWF title.

The WWWF was formed by Capitol Wrestling Corporation (Vince McMahon "Sr.") because he and his cronies in the Northeast wanted to keep the NWA title on Buddy Rogers and refused to let him wrestle dates in other territories. When he finally did drop the title to Lou Thesz, they came up with the excuse that they wouldn't recognize it because it was only a one fall match. From what I understand, both that on-screen story and their formal split from the NWA had the blessing of Sam Muchnick, and they consequently formed a new "sanctioning body" called the World Wide Wrestling Federation with Rogers being officially recognized as it's first champ several months later.

As for the AWA, the on-screen story for it's formation was that Wally Karbo and the rest of the Midwest promoters were upset with the National Wrestling Alliance because they felt Verne Gagne deserved a title shot. So they decided to form their own group called the American Wrestling Association, officially designated NWA champ Pat O'Connor as the first AWA champ, and gave him 90 days to defend the title against Verne or be stripped. When the period elapsed, they awarded the title to Gagne.

From what I understand, this story and split also had the blessing of Sam and was actually formulated by everybody involved as a way to try and fool the government (which was investigating the NWA for violating anti-trust laws and being a monopoly) and make it seem as if they had some legitimate form of competition.
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Postby TJ Vermeer » 2003/07/08 Tue 5:39 am

I know the history of the NWA, WWWFE, WCW and AWA titles. Dan, only the big G in heaven knows how many times you and Zeke have explained these title situations on the Web the last couple of years.
I'm not saying the Raw/WCW title has the lineage/history of the NWA title, because, like I said, I know the deal. But my believe is still that the Raw/WCW title deserves the lineage of the NWA title.
No matter what the NWA board says, it's still Vince McMahon who who owns the NWA/JCP tape collection and with it a very big part of the NWA title history~!
No matter who or what owns the right to some name..
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Postby Dan Poutsma » 2003/07/08 Tue 6:26 pm

Originally posted by TJ Vermeer
I know the history of the NWA, WWWFE, WCW and AWA titles. Dan, only the big G in heaven knows how many times you and Zeke have explained these title situations on the Web the last couple of years.
I'm not saying the Raw/WCW title has the lineage/history of the NWA title, because, like I said, I know the deal. But my believe is still that the Raw/WCW title deserves the lineage of the NWA title.
No matter what the NWA board says, it's still Vince McMahon who who owns the NWA/JCP tape collection and with it a very big part of the NWA title history~!
No matter who or what owns the right to some name..


You're entitled to believe what you wanna believe, but the facts remain the facts whether you choose to turn a blind eye to them or not. Vince might own tons and tons of footage involving NWA World title matches, but that doesn't mean he deserves to claim that the championship itself is his when he or the company he bought out (which claimed the same thing) never had legal ownership of it to begin with.
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Postby TJ Vermeer » 2003/07/09 Wed 8:55 am

Come to think of it.. The NWA/WCW title split reminds of the WWE/Raw tag title split..

NWA title -> billed as WCW (and WCW International) title -> NWA title revived in a tournament..

WWWFE tag title -> billed as 'World' tag title -> WWWFE tag title revived in a tournament..
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Postby JustS2pendous » 2003/07/09 Wed 10:14 am

Thinking about all this guys, wouldn't things have worked so much easier of Survivor Series 01 had resulted in the roster split there and then/ Two companies, two titles. The brand extension would actually have made sense. Besides, I miss WCW
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