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World Title Lineage

Pre-1990 topics only.

Postby Dan Poutsma » 2002/10/09 Wed 9:23 pm

Originally posted by IDMT13
The same thing goes for the IWGP title. Even though Fujinami held it, and the NWA World title at the same time, the two were never unified, and their lineages never intertwined.


Actually, Fujinami did not hold the NWA and IWGP titles simultaneously.

At the time the match took place, there was no distinction at all made between the NWA and WCW championships. It was considered to be just one title, with New Japan Pro Wrestling calling it the NWA title while World Championship Wrestling made reference to it as the "WCW" title.

After the controversial finish, Fujinami was recognized in Japan as the "new" NWA champion while Flair continued to be recognized by WCW in the States as the "WCW" champion. Each promotion claimed that they had the rightful world champion, but still, there was no distinction made between an "NWA" title and a "WCW" title. New Japan did not recognize Flair as WCW champion, nor did WCW recognize Fujinami as NWA champion. Two months later, the rematch was finally held to settle the dispute, with Flair gaining the victory to become THE champion.

Therefore, at the time that the two matches took place, there were no official title changes of any kind. Each man was simply recognized as the world champion by his own promotion. For New Japan, Fujinami was "NWA" champion, while for WCW, Flair was WCW champion.

It wasn't until later on that the NWA Board of Directors decided to do some revisionist history and recognize Fujinami as "winning" the title and Flair "regaining" it. It was done in conjunction with Flair's return to WCW in 1993. They billed him as being a 9 time former world champion, but didn't wanna acknowledge the two title reigns he had in the WWF. So they retroactively decided to recognize the matches with Fujinami as being title changes, in addition to the matches he had with Harley Race in New Zealand and Singapore in 1984.
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Postby Hijo de Carlos » 2002/10/10 Thu 5:52 am

But even though the WCCW title was created as a result of Fritz's promotion leaving the NWA, unlike the other titles mentioned, it was not born directly out of the NWA championship itself.


Isn't that the same as how the AWA title got started? As I understand it that title started because Verne Gagne withdrew his promotion from the NWA and awarded himself the new AWA World title.....or maybe I've got it wrong......
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Postby IDMT13 » 2002/10/10 Thu 1:28 pm

According to <a href='http://www.puroresu.com/titles/awa/awa-h.html' target='_blank'>this</a>, the AWA title was originally the Minneapolis territory, which recognized the "World Heavyweight Championship". It joined the NWA in 1949, but after the Thesz/Carpentier match, Minneapolis withdrew. Two years later, Pat O'Connor was recognized as the first AWA champ, and when he refused to defend against Verne Gagne, he was stripped of it. Gagne then got the title in 1960. In 63, it was unified with the Omaha title, which also branched out ofer the Thesz/Carpentier match.

And about Dan's post... wow. That's a lot of info I didn't know. Thanks for the clarification.
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Postby Hisaharu Tanabe » 2002/10/10 Thu 10:35 pm

Originally posted by IDMT13
It joined the NWA in 1949, but after the Thesz/Carpentier match, Minneapolis withdrew.


They didn't withdraw from NWA right after Thesz/Carpentier match, did they? At least, that's not what I meant on the list.
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Postby IDMT13 » 2002/10/10 Thu 10:51 pm

Oh, I'm sorry. I overlooked something. Did they withdraw after stripping Pat O'Connor for not defending against Gagne? That's where the lineage split, anyway.
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Postby Exit » 2002/10/13 Sun 7:32 am

Good diagram! Although it looks like you missed out the AWA (Montreal) title which split from the AWA (Boston) title in 1937. Not that it makes much of a difference.

I've been interested in title histories and lineages for a long time, but I've just thought of something whilst reading this stuff.
Take this for example, the WWWF title was formed when they refused to recognize Buddy Roger's loss to Lou Thesz for the NWA title and broke away from the NWA. Therefore, does the WWWF title have the same lineage as the NWA title, or is it considered as a completely new title?
Many different branches are created when a decision is disputed. But if you think about it, aren't these promotions just basically coming up with their own world titles, and therefore there is only one true world title (the NWA one?)
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Title

Postby necrosis215 » 2002/10/13 Sun 9:58 am

OK. Each title that has ever split from the NWA (because that was the last point that the titles were ALL unified). Well, each have the lineage of the NWA Title before the split. e.g. WWWF should have recognised all the previous NWA champions and then Buddy Rogers. But, because they formed a completely new company (the day after the one fall with Thesz) they had the world title claimant and so they had to start a new lineage.
Therefore, many people dispute that the ExtremeCW title should be different from the EasternCW title because they were in fact 2 different companies.
Your comment about the NWA being the only true world title holds a little water but there are arguments against it.
Firstly, titles that split from the NWA also hold lineage back to the Muldoon title. Also, titles gain world title status e.g. Triple Crown is made of 3 titles (none of which are world status) but because of the prestigue of the title, many consider it as a world title. In my eyes, it is the only belt being defended as a world title (although WWE Title is starting to gain back some credability in my book).
Hope this helps!!!

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Postby Dan Poutsma » 2002/10/13 Sun 7:20 pm

Any promoter/company that breaks away from the National Wrestling Alliance and begins recognizing their own "world" title (whether it grew directly out of a dispute over the NWA championship or not) has a completely separate championship and history.

It doesn't matter if Pat O'Conner was the reigning NWA champ at the time he was named the first AWA champion or if Buddy Rogers lost the title to Thesz and then Vincent J. McMahon continued to bill him as his own "world" champ. The minute they start creating their own individual alphabet organizations with their own alphabet titles (even if the guy that they recognize still just so happens to be recognized by the National Wrestling Alliance, ala the aformentioned AWA as well as WCW), it's legally a whole different championship.
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NWA/AWA/Gagne/O'Connor

Postby CrimsonMask » 2002/10/19 Sat 1:44 pm

The story about 'O'Connor refusing to defend against Gagne' is the Kayfabe. Just a work. Gagne worked out the whole thing with Muchnick and got his permission to use O'Connor's name to set up 'credibility' for his new title. Just business.

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Postby Exit » 2002/10/20 Sun 8:35 am

Thanks guys! This is some interesting stuff. But I still have some points/questions:

Firstly, I believe that the change from EasternCW to ExtremeCW shouldn't really affect the title. Sure, they're different companies, but it's the same title with the same lineage. Much like the WCW Cruiserweight Title is now the WWE Cruiserweight Title. And I'm sure there are some titles that have switched between companies in Japan and Mexico, but I can't think of them right now.

And doesn't the title that Triple H holds currently have the same lineage as the title that Lesnar has, as 1) Bischoff claimed that the title was now disputed as Lesnar would not defend against the #1 contender [which has happened before in other title histories], and 2) there wasn't a new company formed when this happened, thus making it a new title but without a new lineage.
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Postby Dan Poutsma » 2002/10/20 Sun 10:25 pm

Originally posted by Exit
Thanks guys! This is some interesting stuff. But I still have some points/questions:

Firstly, I believe that the change from EasternCW to ExtremeCW shouldn't really affect the title. Sure, they're different companies, but it's the same title with the same lineage. Much like the WCW Cruiserweight Title is now the WWE Cruiserweight Title. And I'm sure there are some titles that have switched between companies in Japan and Mexico, but I can't think of them right now.


The NWA World Middleweight and Welterweight titles were sold by EMLL to Ultimo Dragon's Toryumon promotion a few years back. Those are the only ones I can think of at the moment.

And doesn't the title that Triple H holds currently have the same lineage as the title that Lesnar has, as 1) Bischoff claimed that the title was now disputed as Lesnar would not defend against the #1 contender [which has happened before in other title histories], and 2) there wasn't a new company formed when this happened, thus making it a new title but without a new lineage.

They're claiming that Triple H's title is the old WCW championship. After WCW was "put out of business" at Survivor Series, they changed the name of it to just the "World" title before it was unified with the then WWF championship to form the "Undisputed" title at Vengeance the following month.

After Lesner bolted to SmackDown!, Bischoff announced, like you said, that the title was no longer "undisputed" and that he was "resurrecting" the World title and awarding it to Triple H.

And yes, no matter how much it may or may not make sense to you, me, or anybody else, WWE can legally claim that Triple H's title is the old WCW championship. They bought the trademark from Turner/Time Warner, so they can say whatever they want.
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Postby TJ Vermeer » 2002/10/22 Tue 4:54 pm

Than couldn't/shouldn't the World title be listed in the WCW title history section?
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Postby Hijo de Carlos » 2002/10/23 Wed 7:44 am

But WCW doesn't exist anymore....
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Postby Hisaharu Tanabe » 2003/07/29 Tue 1:10 am

There's a new thread for the relationship between NWA, WCW, and RAW world titles. Click <a href='http://www.puroresu.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2535' target='_blank'>here</a> to jump to the thread.

No more post regarding to the topic should be posted on this thread.

Thank you.
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Postby mattitude » 2003/12/28 Sun 11:15 pm

[QUOTE=Dan Poutsma]The NWA World Middleweight and Welterweight titles were sold by EMLL to Ultimo Dragon's Toryumon promotion a few years back. Those are the only ones I can think of at the moment.

And doesn't the title that Triple H holds currently have the same lineage as the title that Lesnar has, as 1) Bischoff claimed that the title was now disputed as Lesnar would not defend against the #1 contender [which has happened before in other title histories], and 2) there wasn't a new company formed when this happened, thus making it a new title but without a new lineage.

They're claiming that Triple H's title is the old WCW championship. After WCW was "put out of business" at Survivor Series, they changed the name of it to just the "World" title before it was unified with the then WWF championship to form the "Undisputed" title at Vengeance the following month.

After Lesner bolted to SmackDown!, Bischoff announced, like you said, that the title was no longer "undisputed" and that he was "resurrecting" the World title and awarding it to Triple H.

And yes, no matter how much it may or may not make sense to you, me, or anybody else, WWE can legally claim that Triple H's title is the old WCW championship. They bought the trademark from Turner/Time Warner, so they can say whatever they want.[/QUOTE]
But if you look at the title belt that Eric Bischoff pulls out of the steel breifcase and awards to Triple H it is the belt worn by Booker T on the last Nitro and then again at King of the Ring 2001 so the RAW title has to be a nother ligage in the Big Gold history. Plus Vince changed it twice..

1) Takeing the side plates and curving them
2) Adding the WWE Logo and making the gold brighter

Adding the WWE Logo to the belt is the first time the big gold has ever held a promotions logo.. but you are right as long as Vicne holds on to the belts of the WCW he can do and say what ever he wants to.

take a look at these pics.. Just cause you sell belts to another promotion and they change the name and the look does not mean the history behind it is gone and forgotten.. because if that was the case with these belts then WCW is gone and Dead and these belts are new histories

NWA/WCW/WWF Alliance/WWE Raw Word Heavyweight
<a href='http://"http://wwe.mjsd.ca/title-history/images/wcw_heavyweight.jpg"' target='_blank'>http://wwe.mjsd.ca/title-history/images/wc...heavyweight.jpg</a> <a href='http://"http://wwe.mjsd.ca/title-history/images/raw_heavyweight.jpg"' target='_blank'>http://wwe.mjsd.ca/title-history/images/ra...heavyweight.jpg</a>

WCW/WWF Alliance/WWF/WWE Cruserweight
<a href='http://"http://wwe.mjsd.ca/title-history/images/wcw_cruiserweight.jpg"' target='_blank'>http://wwe.mjsd.ca/title-history/images/wc...uiserweight.jpg</a> <a href='http://"http://wwe.mjsd.ca/title-history/images/smackdown_cruiserweight.jpg"' target='_blank'>http://wwe.mjsd.ca/title-history/images/sm...uiserweight.jpg</a>

NWA/WCW/WWF Alliance/WWE United States Heavyweight
<a href='http://"http://wwe.mjsd.ca/title-history/images/wcw_us.jpg"' target='_blank'>http://wwe.mjsd.ca/title-history/images/wcw_us.jpg</a> <a href='http://"http://wwe.mjsd.ca/title-history/images/smackdown_us.jpg"' target='_blank'>http://wwe.mjsd.ca/title-history/images/sm...mackdown_us.jpg</a>

Matthew
<a href='http://"http://wwe.mjsd.ca/title-history/world.html"' target='_blank'>http://wwe.mjsd.ca/title-history/world.html</a>
<a href='http://"http://wcw.mjsd.ca/title-history/wcw/us_heavyweight.html"' target='_blank'>http://wcw.mjsd.ca/title-history/wcw/us_he...eavyweight.html</a>
<a href='http://"http://wcw.mjsd.ca/title-history/wcw/cruserweight.html"' target='_blank'>http://wcw.mjsd.ca/title-history/wcw/cruserweight.html</a>
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